FabFilter

I've been using Logic's various built-in compressors for years (FET, Opto, VCA, etc) on every different kind of instrument, but I'm finding it really hard to get better sound--let alone equivalent sound--out of Pro C2--especially on drums. I feel like I'm missing something because this came so highly recommended (and higher-priced).

I've watched FF's videos and it all looks/sounds fine but when I try to apply that to a drum track (for example) and approximate the same settings as I have in, say, Logic's basic "Opto Drum Kit" settings (no limiter), I get nowhere near the same results without either massive clipping (+4dB) in the output or, if I back off on gain, the compression gets super tame.

All sounding very FLAT. Hmm.

Are there other videos that you might recommend that show how to use Pro C2 to bring more edge, power, and fullness to drum tracks? I feel like there's gotta be more to this plugin than I'm hearing.

Hi,

Just a guess - maybe the 'range' parameter is set to a low value, and then the compression is maxed at that value.
Try taking it all the way up to 60dB, if that is the case.

Also, you could upload an example, in which you play the same source through both compressors with the same values (Threshold, Ratio, Knee, Range, Style, Lookahead,Stereo Link on/off ), so we can hear the difference.
And maybe a screenshot could also help.

Cheers

Hi,

I had just put together a little test for comparison and was about to send it when I noticed that Logic's default Opto drum kit preset has its "input gain" level set to 0dB--in fact, they all do. Pro C2 has this set to -INF dB. When I bumped this up to 0dB to match, the sound is basically the same.

So that answers a big question but...brings up a new one: why is Pro C2's default dry input set to off? I had thought it was generally standard for most of the dry signal to be included with the compressed one by default? I notice this dry level changes for different presets in Pro C2.

In the "Beginner's Guide To Compression" video the dry input level is always -INF dB which seems surprising to me now because drums can usually use all the power they can get.

Is there a convention for how much dry signal to use when compressing different instruments?

Thanks in advance.

Hi,

The 'Dry' signal is actually 'off' by default in most compressors.
In fact, a lot of them don't even have a dry option.

Mixing the 'dry' signal with the 'wet' while compressing is a method called "Parallel Compression" (Instead of 'Serial Compression').
There are many cases that this method is useful.
For example, if you want to smash a drum, for whatever reason, but still don't want to lose the transients entirely, you could add the dry signal, which is untouched, and mix it with the smashed one, fine tune it to get exactly what you want.
There are many tutorials for this method, you should check them out.

Nevertheless, this isn't the default approach for compression.
This method has it's downsides, like any other method.
It really depends on what are you trying to achieve, and of course the material you're working on.
This is why the dry signal is -INF by default.

If you like it that much, you can change the default setting for Pro-C2 to start with.
Open Pro-C2, change the dry signal to 0 dB, and in the presets menu there's a "set to default" button. From now on Pro-C2 will start using the current state.

I wouldn't recommend it, though.
I really think you should learn a bit more about compression approaches before deciding that you work this way only.
Maybe you're using too much compression, but you never notice because you're used to have the dry signal always on.

Anyway, Good luck, hope this helps :}

Cheers

Plus, you're mixing up "input gain" on Logic's compressor, which is just how loud the signal is going into the compressor. And the "Dry gain" which is how much of the dry signal is mixed back into the output in Pro-C2.
The Dry Gain and Wet Gain on Pro-C2 together serve the same function as the Mix knob in Logic's comp.

Now, there's something else. I may be wrong but it seems you like to use the compressor to make things loud. Compressors can achieve this by (un-intuitively) making stuff less loud by reducing peaks, thereby reducing dynamic range (allowing you more headroom to make stuff louder). It's basically a fancy volumefader. The movement of that fader is determined by the Attack and Release times and the general algorithm used. Fast release times squashes peaks (yay!) but kills transients, which is bad for drums (awww).

Whatever the case, they all work relatively similar and if one sounds much punchier than the other, in 9 out of 10 times it is simply in the way it is set up.
Good primer here: www.soundonsound.com/techniques/compression-fashion-drum-sound-you-want

Bram is right--the setting in Logic I was referring to is indeed the input gain, separate from the dry/wet knob. The default Opto drum kit preset in Logic has its wet level at 100%, the same as Pro C2.

But, as it turns out, maybe I spoke too soon. Here's what has me scratching my head:

When I have identical settings in both compressors, the sound is essentially the same. BUT, where Logic's compressor has the track VU meter sitting right at 0dB, Pro C2 is pushing it way up to +4.5dB. Now why is that happening? (I had noticed this before but it got lost along the way...) Remember, Logic's limiter is OFF, so either Logic's Opto is doing something it's not telling us or Pro C2's Opto works differently..?

How is Logic's Opto compressor outputting this kind of sound without peaking like Pro C2?

As a control, I tried a totally separate 3rd party compressor (non-Opto) and tried to approximate the same levels. Same problem: track outputting at ~+4dB.

And yes, I understand what compression is doing, and am usually judicious about how I apply it to most instruments. But [for some tracks] I tend to go for the punchier drum settings, then gradually back it off as I mix. Right now I'm having to work hard to get a punchy feel out of Pro C2 that matches Logic's stock offerings.

(For comparison, I loaded up Pro C2's default "Drum smasher #1 Dax" preset and, while it's definitely punchier, it's still less present-sounding than Logic--AND it's peaking at +0.6 to 1dB. What am I missing?)

Yroth--think I should still send screenshots and audio samples to FF?

I should clarify that I had a couple of plugins running before this (exciter and tape delay) in the chain while I was testing. But when those are switched off, the same difference in output gain is evident.

And without those plugins active, there is no +4.5dB peak, instead where the track outputs at -6.5dB with Logic's compressor, it outputs at -12dB with Pro C2. Why the big disparity?

Am reading through the SOS page now.

I don't use Logic anymore, but I see its compressor has a distortion circuit built in. These things don't let peaks through, they eat them. Could it be that it's engaged?

Anyway, it's hard to say what's going on without everything in front of me...

Possibly; I don't know enough about compressor architecture to know how it can accomplish this feat.

Guess I'll send along the test stuff to FF and maybe they can enlighten me; so much to know...

The compressor in Logic has a switch to turn saturation on and off...

I'm not seeing that in the UI--where is it located?

Righthand side, when you click the "out" button - I think :))

Their stock compressor? Not seeing it. Maybe it was in an earlier version?

logicstudiotraining.com/members/wp-content/uploads/Compressor-Circuit-Types-Vintage-Opto-LA-2A-600x477.png

Right next to the output meter.

...ohhh you mean the *distortion* knob. You mentioned saturation before so I was a bit lost.

Yeah, switching this off brings the output gain down a bit though I'm still hearing it 2-3dB hotter than Pro C2. Maybe that's just down to their individual algorithms/architectures.

Interestingly, when I re-enable a saturation plugin in the chain before these compressors, Pro C2 tends to "behave" and hover around -1.8dB while Logic's compressor--still noticeably louder--is now the one doing the clipping at around +1dB.

So whatever they have going on with that distortion switch must evidently be using a limiter of some kind as well because when it's enabled it's not only louder still, but never clips. (though who knows what it's doing with transients etc)

That being said, for full, "dirty" drums I can't really fault Logic's Opto compressor--it sounds good even without their distortion. For this particular track I'd stick with Logic. Bit of a lesson there--the tools matter!

Thanks for your input/output :D

" I should clarify that I had a couple of plugins running before this (exciter and tape delay) in the chain while I was testing. But when those are switched off, the same difference in output gain is evident.

And without those plugins active, there is no +4.5dB peak, instead where the track outputs at -6.5dB with Logic's compressor, it outputs at -12dB with Pro C2. Why the big disparity? "

This sounds like 2 things:

1. The output gain in the exciter is peaking way above 0 dB.Probably because you tried to get more saturated output. you need to lower the output gain in the exciter, or lower the input gain the compressors afterwards.
Gain staging is also a very important subject to learn about.

2. The difference between both compressors sounds like "auto-gain" is ON for Pro-C2. This is an automatic "make-up" gain.
Try turning it off.
Either way, there's no way Pro-C2 would have peaked +4.5dB if the input gain wouldn't have been much higher.

If that is also not the case, than I think it would be helpful if you upload a screenshot and some audio tracks.

Cheers

Hey Yroth--see my last post before this one; turns out the Logic compressor has a distortion (saturation) switch that, if enabled, boosts the sound a lot. When I turned this off, the levels are much closer.

But it was definitely interesting to hear how differently these two compressors behaved when those 3rd party plugins were enabled earlier in the chain. Not saying either is "better", just a bit different in how they respond to the incoming signal.

What probably makes this even tougher to gauge is that, in this case, I WANTED a dirty, distressed sound, not a clean one (like in the video demo). No doubt Logic's compression is messing with the signal beyond just compression but...for this track it works.

(FYI: I did send in an email with screen shots and an audio sample--although I think this was before I had figured out that Logic's distortion switch was the culprit.)

Cool, what works best for you :)

Cheers

The discussion in this thread was productive. Just wanted to mention that different hardware and software compressors have vastly different ways of adding (or not adding) their own color to sounds.

Some compressors are sought after for the way they add a ton of their own extra color to sounds, distorting/saturating/pumping them and really changing them in a significant way. This is often the desirable goal when parallel compressing drums to make them sound bigger.

Some compressors are sought after for the way you can push them hard to get big gain reduction without coloring/distorting/saturating the sound much. In my opinion Pro-C and Pro-Q fall into this category of clean, surgical, smooth-workflow tools that serve many purposes well, but do not excel in adding massive amounts of distortion/saturation/coloration of their own. This doesn't make them better or worse in general, but does make them better or worse for specific production goals.

If Fabfilter ever adds options in Pro-C (3?) to add distortion/saturation on top of the current functionality I think it'd be awesome and increase the use cases for the plugin. Then again, Saturn can add as much distortion/saturation as you want, but its sometimes not the same as having it all built into a single compressor plugin for convenience and having the distortion/saturation respond to the peaks in the input signal in organic ways.